John Schu on Writing, Healing, and Hope

A podcast interview with John Schu discussing Louder Than Hunger on The Growing Readers Podcast, a production of The Children’s Book Review.

A heartfelt conversation with John Schu, the acclaimed author of the novel in verse, Louder Than Hunger.

John opens up about his personal journey with anorexia nervosa, depression, and anxiety and how he channeled these experiences into creating Jake’s story. This candid discussion offers listeners a rare glimpse into the creative process behind crafting an emotionally charged book for young readers.

Throughout the episode, John delves into:

• The nuances of addressing sensitive topics in middle-grade literature
• Finding the right balance between truth and fiction when drawing from personal experiences
• The crucial role of self-expression and support networks in mental health recovery
• The unique impact of novels in verse on young readers

John also shares fascinating insights into his writing process, including his use of inspirational Post-it notes and the challenges of deciding which personal elements to include or fictionalize.

This episode is essential listening for anyone passionate about middle-grade literature, mental health representation in books, or the healing power of storytelling. Join us for an inspiring conversation celebrating hope, resilience, and the transformative impact of sharing our stories.

Listen to the Episode

Read the Transcription

Bianca Schulze: Hi, John. Welcome back to The Growing Readers Podcast for the second time.

John Schu: Hello. I’m so, so excited that I am back. It means that you liked our conversation enough the first time to invite me back. I loved our conversation the first time, and when I received the invitation from you, I was so honored and so excited to come back.

Bianca Schulze: Well, welcome. And I’ve said this on the podcast before, but I love second-time guests because sometimes it means that we can just really focus on the book at hand. Because I like when it’s the first-time guests, I want to know more about you and what you loved reading as a kid. And so, like, on this episode, we just get to talk about Louder Than Hunger.

John Schu: Oh, thank you.

Bianca Schulze: I mean, I have never in my life seen a book get so much praise from so many amazing people. And so I just thought maybe we should start by acknowledging some of that praise. And if you don’t mind, I’m going to read a couple of quotes from some reviews. Is that okay?

John Schu: Yes, of course. Like, positive feedback still makes me really uncomfortable. So I’m just going to absorb it all and say thank you.

Bianca Schulze: Okay. And I won’t make you respond to it all, but I just think, I just want listeners to hear, like, some of the incredible names out there talking about your book in such beautiful words. So the New York Times Book Review, “A harrowing and life-affirming novel in verse for young people. This is a hard story, raw and jagged in its emotions, but its core is hope. Louder Than Hunger is a book that roars. It could save lives.”

John Schu: I mean, yeah, I kind of respond to that review. So John Schwartz wrote that review, and I wept reading that review. I wept based on what you just read. But there’s a line in the review that you didn’t read that I love to share in presentations. Is it okay if I share my favorite line of the review? So he says that Jake Stacy is miserable from the very first page. In no way does John Schu glorify anorexia nervosa. And when I read that, I was so, so happy, and I was so grateful that he saw that, because that was my goal when I was writing the book, that in no way it would glorify anorexia nervosa.

In no way would it encourage a child to develop an eating disorder. In no way was the book a how-to manual. So I am super grateful that you started with that review, because that review was when that was the first review where it felt like somebody truly, truly saw what I was trying to do that. I was not trying to create a book that the types of books that I read when I was a kid that were really harmful to me and helped me have a better eating disorder.

Bianca Schulze: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I’m really glad that you chimed in there. And I have a question that I’m going to ask you later on where we can also kind of dig in a little bit about what it takes to write a book about anorexia nervosa.

John Schu: Yes. So thank you. Thank you for letting me interject.

Bianca Schulze: Always. This is. No, this is about you. You interject all that you want, John. All that you want. So Katherine Applegate, author of the Newbery Medal-winning The One and Only Ivan, said, “Every so often a book comes along that is so brave and necessary that it extends a lifeline when it’s needed most. This is one of those books.”

John Schu: Yeah. And when I received that statement, it felt as though my favorite teacher gave me a gold star and gave me a big A. I think the last time I was here, we talked about that. My forever book, the Book of my Heart, is The One and Only Ivan by Katherine Applegate. And that book was a lifeline for me when I read it. So for her to say that meant so, so much.

Bianca Schulze: Yes. And then Minh Lê, the award-winning author of Drawn Together, said Louder Than Hunger “Pours a whole heart onto the page, bravely exposing the raw spaces within to give readers that rare and precious gift: hope.” And so I think when you read, like, just those three alone, I mean, we could go on and on here. There’s so many incredible people who had incredible things to say. But I hear the rawness, the vulnerability, the bravery that’s within the story. I mean, these are all things that had to come from you. And that at the very end of the day, and I just feel like this has been such a common theme with people I talk about, is that at the end of the day, these books that are tough topics, they provide hope and definitely Louder Than Hunger provides hope. And then there’s the beautiful forward by Kate DiCamillo. I mean, come on, come on, come on.

John Schu: That’s actually how I book talk the book. I book talk it by. Well, in my presentations, I really have a hierarchy of who I am and the hats that I’m wearing. So I’m first, always a reader, and then I’m second, a teacher, and then I’m third, I’m a teacher librarian. And then fourth, I’m a writer, and I spend a lot of my presentations talking about Katherine Applegate and talking about Jason Reynolds and talking about Minh Lê and talking about Dave Pilkey and Jeff Kinney and most Kate DiCamillo. And toward the end of the presentation, I read a lot about that forward. But I don’t say that it’s by Kate DiCamillo. And when I say her name, so many people gasp because they know how much she means to me.

Bianca Schulze: Yeah.

John Schu: So, yes, it’s a beautiful forward.

Bianca Schulze: It’s stunning. And I, like, you know, part of me was like, will you read it? But then, do we want people to experience it with the book in their hands?

John Schu: Yeah, no, I’ll read it if you’d like. I love reading it, actually. I have it memorized.

But I don’t. I don’t want to be too confident, so I’m going to. I’m going to hold the book, but I really have it memorized, so. But this is how Louder Than Hunger starts. It starts with a forward.

“What if someone was brave enough to tell you the truth? What if someone dared to reveal their heart to you? The book that you hold in your hands tells a painful truth. It reveals a beautiful, broken heart, Jake’s heart. Jake is 13 years old, and he has an eating disorder. You and Jake are about to go on a harrowing journey together. By the time you finish reading this book, you will be friends. Reading Jake’s story will change you. You might find that you want to reveal your heart, tell someone your truth. Telling your story can save your life. It may save someone else’s life, too. Jake knows this. John Schu knows this. This is why he wrote this book for you. Your friend, Kate DiCamillo.”

Bianca Schulze: Yes.

John Schu: It’s so beautiful. It’s so beautiful. And it really. It sums up like. Like what my mission was and is for this book, that it will help somebody feel less alone, that it will inspire somebody to tell their truth, that it will inspire somebody to, as Kate DiCamillo would say in The Tiger Rising, open up the suitcase of their heart. So, thank you.

Bianca Schulze: I feel like you just led right into what I wanted to ask you, because we talk about this being Jake’s heart, like, we see into his heart, but it’s also really your heart. We’re seeing into your heart. Will you explain to me what’s in both your head and your heart when you sat down to create such a vulnerable story?

John Schu: Yeah. So I knew right away that it needed to be a novel in verse, because the first ten poems, well, I didn’t know they were going to be poems. But my attempt to start writing this story, it all came out in poetry. And I wrote almost every draft in a notebook that’s actually a sketchbook that doesn’t have any lines. And I love the way that I can manipulate those lineless pages and how the white space right away helped me feel more comfortable being vulnerable, which I eventually realized was like an act of bravery in a lot of ways as well, writing this story. But I knew right away that it was going to be a novel in verse. And I also knew that I was going to write it based on my own experiences, that the main character, though, would not.

And I also knew that I was going to write it based on my own experiences, that the main character, though, would not be exactly me. I knew right away that the story was going to be a novel in verse. And I knew right away that it was finally my time to tell my story of my struggles with anorexia nervosa, obsessive-compulsive disorder, depression, and anxiety. But I knew that I didn’t want to write John Edward Schumacher, my legal name. I knew I didn’t want to write his absolutely true story, but that I wanted to write my own story through the lens of somebody else, if that makes sense. And so right away, I came up with the name of Jake Stacy. I named him Jake Stacy. One, because we have the same initials, John Schu, Jake Stacy. And then two, when I was a kid, I really, really wished my name were Jake. And so I was able to give myself the name that I wish that I had as a child.

Bianca Schulze: Yeah, absolutely. I have a middle school-grade kid. So I totally agree with that. Slight tangent again, based on what you were just talking about. Please do. I love a good tangent. So this is something that I struggle with, with the Children’s Book Review is that when you receive a book and you read a book, and I’ve been doing this since 2008, I feel experienced. I have three children of my own from very varying ages. I always feel really confident with sort of giving a guideline of an age group. But there are some people that will write and say that you shouldn’t attach an age group to a book. But I feel so conflicted about that because I think if you’re a pretty easygoing child, family, everything’s kind of hunky-dory for you. You may be a precocious reader, and by putting an age on it now, you’re saying, well, you shouldn’t read picture books and you shouldn’t read this novel. And that’s never my intention, but it’s just more sometimes it’s the content, right? And who is going to most receive this content? And also, my platform is only online and people are often searching “best books for four-year-olds.” So how do they even find your site if you don’t attach an age to it? I told you. It was a big tangent, so just.

John Schu: No, I think about it all the time.

Bianca Schulze: What are your feelings on ages?

John Schu: Yeah, so all my training is in library science. I was a school librarian for nine years. I feel like I’m still a librarian without my own library. And so when I’m recommending books, I’m always truly thinking about library selection policy, which is a different angle to take. And I would often have, like, really deep, important conversations with my former students about why we didn’t have The Hunger Games in our K-5 library. Like, The Hunger Games, I mean, it’s still popular, but, like, when every kid was reading it and the elementary school kids were seeing their middle school, you know, siblings and high school siblings and their parents reading the book, why couldn’t they get it from our K-5 library? And I would have a conversation with them about how School Library Journal recommends this book for grades eight and up. Do we have students in grade eight here? And then they would understand.

So I think I’ve always, like, tied ages when it comes to where does this best fall in a library collection. I would think sometimes about classroom libraries. Well, but I’m also thinking about protecting the librarian and protecting their position. Sadly, today, you know, I think, like, even more now. I look at. Well, I recommend this for this age group because, let’s say I had put The Hunger Games in the collection, and then a family member filled out the form where they wanted to question the material. I would have lost that challenge because based on what my selection policy says, I shouldn’t have had that in the collection. So that’s even a bigger tangent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it’s what I always say is, like, like, I can only think about, like, the library where I was for nine years in many ways. And would I put this in the collection or not, like, Louder Than Hunger is honestly a book that I probably would have, like, had on my desk, and it would have been in the collection, and I would have felt like, this fifth grader really, really needs this story right now. This fifth grader is, you know, emotionally mature enough, I think, in many ways, to. To go on the journey and the. The school. Last school year, at the beginning of the school year, knowing that Louder Than Hunger was coming out halfway through the school year, I started to talk about it in my 6th grade presentations, and I realized after my 1st 6th grade session that I had to do a very different version of what I wanted to talk about. They were laughing, and they weren’t laughing because they were trying to be mean. They just weren’t ready to have those conversations. And then when the book came out, when those kids were like third semester, second semester of 6th grade, not the exact same kids, they didn’t have that type of response, you know, because they had had more experiences in middle school, which is so different from elementary.

Bianca Schulze: Yeah. I mean, I feel like that question could be a whole episode with John Schu on its own. I think that, I mean there’s, yeah.

John Schu: And then this book, people realize a lot of people are struggling or what is the age? Is it middle grade? Is it YA? I received an email just last week where the person actually was asking me off the record if I thought it better when I into the middle grade category or the YA category. And I gave them a very long response and in the end and said, I really think you could put it either or put it both. You know, here in the US, it’s being shelved mostly in middle grade. But I was in London recently and every bookstore I went to I tried to find Louder Than Hunger. And thankfully every bookstore had it. And every bookstore, probably seven bookstores, it was always in the young adult section.

Bianca Schulze: Yeah. That’s so interesting.

John Schu: Yeah.

Bianca Schulze: I mean, you could, you could also put it in the adult section because I feel like a lot of adults can, can take a lot from this book too.

John Schu: Well, I did find it once in the adult section at a Barnes and Noble in I think New Jersey. And we had spent, I never say I’m the author, by the way. I just asked like, can you look up this book for me? It’s called Louder Than Hunger by John Schu. And it showed they had it in stock. And the bookseller said, we had a really long conversation about this book. We couldn’t quite decide if it needed to go in. She said, YA, middle grade or parenting. And I was like, parenting? And we found it in the parenting section. That’s where they decided to put it.

Bianca Schulze: That is so interesting.

John Schu: Yeah. Which I could see putting it there, but also putting it somewhere else because like, you know, a 6th grader is not going to go over to the parenting sector if they’re just browsing. At least I don’t think they would.

Bianca Schulze: Oh my gosh. Yeah. So fascinating.

So I’m wondering if there’s a passage that you’d be willing to read and then if you would like me to, I have some highlighted passages that I felt were particularly meaningful. But if you want to read. I would want to hear what you’ve picked.

John Schu: Well, I would rather hear from yours because my main one is the forward. That’s what I would have asked to read, even though I did not write it. But I just think it’s so powerful and it tells you so much about the story. So I’d love to hear. I’d love to hear what resonated with you.

Bianca Schulze: All right. Well, the funny thing is that I actually was. I have, like, two copies of Louder Than Hunger, and I could not find either copy ahead of our conversation today. So I went and downloaded it onto my Kindle. And you know what?

John Schu: Oh, thank you.

Bianca Schulze: So fascinating about the Kindle is that you can see the passages that other people have highlighted.

John Schu: Oh, really?

Bianca Schulze: You cannot see who they are, but I could see that this. This is a passage that eight people had highlighted it. And I was like, that’s so funny because I was going to highlight it, too. So I’m going to read this one because I think it was obviously resonating. Okay.

I punish myself day after day.

Why? For taking up too much space for being me, for breathing.

Now, you don’t have to comment on that, but the fact that a lot of people had highlighted that passage on their Kindle means that it spoke to them.

John Schu: Yeah, they felt that way. I think a lot of. A lot of people feel that way. Yeah. That was one of the poems where I cried writing it. I cried a lot writing this book. And a lot of it was. I just felt so bad for Jake. And I’d say to Jake, I’m sorry, like, I have to hurt you one more time. I had to keep telling him that. And sometimes it was my editor saying, you’ve got to hurt him one more time. It’s like, when can I start to allow this kid to do better? And at times I was like, okay, he’s now going on the path. That feels good. And then I go, no, I’m sorry. I’ve got to just hurt you one more time. Right.

Bianca Schulze: That is that element of, like, keeping the pages turning. Right and. Yeah, yeah.

John Schu: Plus, it’s true. I mean, like, pretty much everything that happened to Jake in the book happened to me.

Bianca Schulze: And then, well, I’m not going to read this whole page. I’m just going to read. It’s from day 20. And it was. I believe Mom was reading a letter from Grandma. And I don’t want to read the letter because I want people to experience it for themselves. But I’m going to read the words that, at least on the layout of my Kindle, were at the top and it’s: Reading aloud is love.

John Schu: Yeah.

Bianca Schulze: What do you want to say about that?

John Schu: Yeah, that’s actually the line that most people have shared with me, because when people come through the line, if I see they have little post-it notes, I’ll go, “Oh, can I look at some of them or just tell me a line that resonates?” And I want to say, like, 60% of people have said that line, reading aloud is love, or they’ve written it, like, in the front of the book that came to me. I don’t know if I heard that somewhere before. I remember that where I was, I was driving on a rural street in Pennsylvania, and it was at the time that I was, like, so deep into the story, and, like, I really was only thinking about the story every moment of the day. And I was thinking about a scene with grandma, and I was like, reading aloud is love. Does that mean writing is love, too? And I remember I pulled over to the side of the road again, rural Pennsylvania. And I just wrote it in my notebook really fast. And then I couldn’t wait to get back to my hotel room to put it into the story. And so I’m grateful that that has been resonating so much with people.

Bianca Schulze: Yeah, I love it. When you sign your copies to people, do you write something else in there?

John Schu: Yeah. So I have two different things that I write in Louder Than Hunger, and they both came to me in the shower. Every, like, personalization comes at a moment right before the book is coming out, when I’m in the shower. And I’m like, oh, I’ve got to come up with what I’m going to write. And so if I like, in your copy, this is what I would write. I would write, “Please take care of your heart.” I would do one line, “Please take care” centered “of your heart.” So it’s three lines, but that’s too long when you don’t have a lot of time. And so otherwise I’d put, like, “From John’s heart for your heart.” That’s the other that I write, but I really want to write, “Please take care of your heart.” And I say to the person, if you haven’t read the book yet, that line will make more sense toward the end of the story.

John Schu: Yeah, I hope that Louder Than Hunger encourages readers to listen to Alanis Morissette. That may sound like a joke, but it’s true. And I’ve received emails from middle schoolers who said after they read Louder Than Hunger, they listened to the Jagged Little Pill. And I was like, oh, that. There’s a lot of therapy in listening to that album. I hope it inspires them to pick up their own notebook and really do what Kate DiCamillo says can be done in the forward, which is tell your own story, open up your own heart. I hope if they’re struggling with anorexia nervosa or if they’re struggling with a voice that has gone from a little voice to a big voice, that they’re inspired to ask for help and that there’s nothing wrong with asking for help and having a psychologist and going on medication and normalizing all of those things. So that’s what I hope. And then my joke answer is, I hope that they watch The Golden Girls because there’s a few Golden Girls references in the book.

Bianca Schulze: Yes. You know what’s funny? I love it when I’m reading a book and I’m like, you know what, I must be almost the same age as this author because of references. So I know based on some of the year, like the date that was listed in the book, I have a couple of years on you. But I mean, we watched the same shows, we listened to the same music. And recently I was reading Black Girl, You Are Atlas by Renée Watson.

John Schu: Oh, yeah, I read it. Yeah.

Bianca Schulze: Now, I grew up in Australia. She grew up in the US. She’s black, I’m white. And yet I was like, we’re the same. And so I was like, I need to know how old she is, which is so rude of me. But I googled and our birthdays are almost the same.

Bianca Schulze: I love it. I love it. All right, well, I don’t want to leave without asking you quickly about your next picture book, because you say which stories are your, like, your story of your hearts and whatnot. But, like, this also has to be a little piece of your heart. It’s This is a Theater.

John Schu: Oh, yeah. Oh, that one. Yeah. There’s another one, too. But yeah, let’s talk about that one. So This Is a Theater was just announced a few weeks ago. Actually, a week ago, like, almost exactly a week ago. We’re recording this. I don’t know when. August 13. And I can finally talk about This Is a Theater. It’s a poem I’ve been wanting to write for a long time. I actually wanted to write that one after. This Is a Story I wrote. This Is a Story first, even though This Is a School came out first. And my editor said, no. She said, we need to wait for some sales data on the first one. And I kept telling people during presentations, if you want me to write This Is a Theater, you must buy This Is a School and This Is a Story. And those two have done okay. So I got to write it.

And it’s so wonderful, and it’s my love letter to theater and the performing arts. And it’s a poem that was inspired by doing hundreds and hundreds of school visits. It was a poem that’s inspired by a word I always think about, which is connection. And I wrote the poem in a way that shows that light and sound can lead to connection, and I hope it resonates with people.

And then I have a picture book coming out in March 2025, that’s called Ruthie Rose’s Big Idea. And it’s about this little girl named Ruthie Rose who waked up with a big, bright, beautiful idea. And there was a character that spoke to me when I was walking down the jet bridge at O’Hare airport, going to New York City to work on Louder Than Hunger. And she said to me, hello, I’m Ruthie Rose, and I have a big, bright, beautiful idea. And I said to her, I don’t have time to work on your story. I’m working on Jake’s story. But she kept talking to me, and I had to figure out what her big, bright, beautiful idea was. So instead of revising Louder Than Hunger, one weekend, I wrote Ruthie Rose. And Ruthie Rose is, like, so joyful and very much like an adult version of me in some ways. And I think it helped me, like, take a much needed break from Louder Than Hunger to write a different type of story. So. Yeah, that’s this one. But I wrote it at the same time.

ianca Schulze: I didn’t know about that one. So I’m so glad that you shared it. And the cover by Holly Hatam looks so lovely and bright and so beautiful.

John Schu: I love it. I love it. So, yeah, it’s, I’m going to just. Yeah. Show you the end papers. I know, this you probably have to cut, but they’re so vibrant and the characters are so wonderful. And I’ve already written the sequel to this book, so we can talk about that in the future.

Bianca Schulze: That’s so cool. Look at you. Well, I’m like, no, I mean, I’m really impressed.

John Schu: It is wild. I know.

Bianca Schulze: I mean, I feel like it’s just so great to see people who are just so invested in sharing other people’s stories, getting to share their own stories. So, like, I feel so happy whenever I see that. So.

John Schu: Yeah. Thank you.

Bianca Schulze: All right, well, would you do me the honor, John, of ending our conversation today, and only if you want to, by reading your afterword from the book?

John Schu: Oh, sure, sure. Let me get to it. So the dear reader letter.

Bianca Schulze: Yeah.

John Schu: Oh, yes. So I read this on the audiobook, and I thought it would be easy to record, and it wasn’t. I cried multiple times. And I love that on the audiobook, you can hear me choking up. And the only way I got through reading it, I won’t cry now because I’ve read it a lot, even more since then. The only way I got through it, it was by imagining that Dolly Parton was sitting next to me, and Dolly Parton is behind me right now. I don’t know if you can see her there, but I love that. That’s what the producer said to me, because she knew from our, like, getting to know each other call before we recorded together that I love Dolly. So I’m going to pretend like Dolly Parton is next to me. So here we go.

Bianca Schulze: I love Dolly, too.

[John Reads the Afterword]

John Schu: Thank you for the honor.

And I realized there’s so much of what we talked about today that’s in that letter.

Bianca Schulze: Yeah. Yeah, that’s why I wanted you to end with it. Thank you so much, John.

John Schu: No, thank you for the honor.

Bianca Schulze: And just thank you in general for putting your heart into Louder Than Hunger, putting your heart into story. But also showing others that they could also do that. They can also share their heart with their own words too. And I think that’s really important. So thanks for being here, John.

John Schu: Same for you. And I can’t wait to read your next book.

Bianca Schulze: Thank you.

About the Book

Louder Than Hunger

Written by John Sch

Ages 10+ | 528 Pages

Publisher: Candlewick (2024) | ISBN-13: 9781536229097

Publisher’s Synopsis: Revered teacher, librarian, and story ambassador John Schu explores anorexia—and self-expression as an act of survival—in a wrenching and transformative novel-in-verse.

But another voice inside me says,
We need help.
We’re going to die.

Jake volunteers at a nursing home because he likes helping people. He likes skating and singing, playing Bingo and Name That Tune, and reading mysteries and comics aloud to his teachers. He also likes avoiding people his own age . . . and the cruelty of mirrors . . . and food. Jake has read about kids like him in books—the weird one, the outsider—and would do anything not to be that kid, including shrink himself down to nothing. But the less he eats, the bigger he feels. How long can Jake punish himself before he truly disappears? A fictionalized account of the author’s experiences and emotions living in residential treatment facilities as a young teen with an eating disorder, Louder than Hunger is a triumph of raw honesty. With a deeply personal afterword for context, this much-anticipated verse novel is a powerful model for muffling the destructive voices inside, managing and articulating pain, and embracing self-acceptance, support, and love.

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Show Notes

John Schu is the author of the acclaimed picture books This Is a School, illustrated by Veronica Miller Jamison, and This Is a Story, illustrated by Caldecott Honoree Lauren Castillo. He also wrote the adult study The Gift of Story: Exploring the Affective Side of the Reading Life and was named a Library Journal Mover and Shaker for his dynamic interactions with students and his passionate adoption of new technologies as a means of connecting authors, illustrators, books, and readers. Children’s librarian for Bookelicious, part-time lecturer at Rutgers University, and former Ambassador of School Libraries for Scholastic Book Fairs, Mr. Schu—as he is affectionately known—continues to travel the world to share his love of books. He lives in Naperville, Illinois.

You can find him at www.JohnSchu.com and on social media @MrSchuReads.

Resources:

Anxiety and Depression Association of America: ⁠https://adaa.org⁠

International OCD Foundation: ⁠https://kids.iocdf.org⁠

National Alliance for Eating Disorders: ⁠https://www.allianceforeatingdisorders.com/⁠

National Association of Anorexia Nervosa and Associated Disorders: ⁠https://anad.org/

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